The Business of Horses - Inside 2-Year-Old Training Programs with Ty Benson and Max Morin

Hi everyone, this is Melanie Smith at Silla Select. We've got a really exciting group of guys here today to talk about two-year-old programs. This is something that is so critical to a horse's success, and I think we're going to give you guys a lot of insight today on what makes a successful two-year-old program, why they're so important, different types of two-year-old programs, and how they are just truly the foundation of most of the faturity champions that we see across every discipline. And the reining, the cutting, the cow horse, the roping, this two-year-old program deal is really becoming quite a deal. And so we're going to start off introducing our guests here. We've got Ty Benson with us today. Ty Benson rides and has ridden horses for Ty Smith and I for a while.

Five, six, seven years, a while. It's been a while. And so Ty has ridden a lot of horses you guys have seen come through our program that were winners. Darkside, he's had, he had Darkside almost his whole two-year-old year. He's had a number of great cutting and cow horses. Him and Ty Smith owned the horse that brought a half a million the year before last at the sale, which was really cool and we've seen tons of open trainers be very successful on his horses both in the cutting and the cow horse and he's an open faturity finalist in the cow horse himself shows horses still but has really focused in probably what the last three years on having solely a two-year-old program and so you guys have heard me talk about Ty a lot on the podcast you've seen lots of videos of Ty riding our horses and so I know a lot of you guys are familiar with them and And then we've got Max Moore in here today as well.

Max is a reigning, primarily has reigning horses. You've been doing the two-year-old program for probably, what'd you say, six years? Yeah. Okay. And so Max has done a really great job of keeping up with this, that he has almost $2 million in earnings coming from horses he's trained in his program for the last six years, which is absolutely incredible in the reigning world. You've been riding horses your whole life. and you said you ride almost exclusively two-year-olds now but you are multiple time open finalist and the reigning yourself and we were talking a little bit before we got started here about you've had two open finalists one year you made the level one two three and four open finals and then another thing you told me which i thought was really cool i think you said it was the next year you had 13 open finalists that came from your program which you said was basically half of your two-year-old program that year. And so that's an incredible feat.

And so we're going to, of course, talk more about Max and get more into what he does. And so I think kind of what I want to do today and what I hope you guys get out of this is, you know, if you've got these babies, yearlings coming up, And you're kind of like, OK, now what? Because I get that question a lot, right? People are like, I don't know, do I send them to the person that's going to show them? Do I send them to somebody to put 30 days on and then go do something else on them for a little bit? And so there's tons of different avenues you can take. And I think it used to be, especially when you talk about, you know, the roping is one thing that's grown as we're going to talk about today so much.

It used to be like, oh, you can send them to somebody for 30 days and then they can go ranch on them a little bit. That's not the case anymore. Like they have to be in a program from day one that is absolutely exceptional. And if they don't get in those right programs from day one, you might as well throw your money as a three-year-old out the window because they're not going to be futurity horses. they have to have an exceptional two-year-old year. And so as we see these disciplines continue to get more and more specialized and tougher and tougher, and the horses are better every year, it is taking a very special horse that's been in a very special set of programs, which may be one program as we're going to talk about today, or it may be a two-year-old program and then went into a faturity program.

And every single box has to be checked now. You can't skip anything. And so, Atai, I'll start with you. And so when you think of two-year-old programs, why do you think that they are so critical now in today's performance horse age? I think the biggest thing is probably just the time restraints that everybody has. And show schedules are getting tougher and tougher. Everybody's showing a lot more. And i think that's the biggest thing and if you're if you're behind the two-year-old year and the three-year-old year you're just you may as well not even not even show up to the 30s because it's just too competitive now you know i think that's the that's the biggest thing really oh for sure i think i mean if you look at it like, And those show barns, they're gone for at least 100 to 150 days out of the year.

And that's, you know, so much time. And like you say, I think time factor is huge. I stay home. I even don't. I turn down derby horses for that reason. I had an opportunity to go show derby horses and they take so much time. So, you know, and those guys do an amazing job going to show those horses. And that's where they're so good at and that's what they need to be used for but yeah when you lose 150 days of training a year that's that's almost what so over four months or five months almost so yeah it's five months of training right well and then I think too when your horse trainer is home if if they are riding their own two-year-olds when they get home for them to be fresh and good they've got to have some time out between those two right they can't just say like oh we're home we've been gone for two weeks and it's sunday morning and it's time to get the two year olds out you know and so i think at one point in time that worked and now that it has gotten so competitive i think it's just grown to be it's tougher and tougher and those guys mentally and physically have to be in the right spot to get their three-year-olds trained much less their two-year-olds too well and the other side of it too i think the.

First and i don't know exactly on the rainers but i mean for the first six months we're not really hauling them anywhere like you have to be at your house you know doing the work every day now when a horse is three they need hauled they are gonna go with the trainers a lot but i mean for that first six months which we haul our two-year-olds a lot too especially the sail horses but that first basically six months i mean you're just locked in a home and we're going from an unstarted horse that's never been saddled some of them barely had a halter on and we're just that first even two three months we're just trying to make them a good citizen yeah man and then start riding them and and going through the process that so i mean there's just no substitute for getting up every morning and be in Ireland working with them for that first six months.

Yeah. And I mean, 150 days too is like, is if we count like Monday to Friday, but you add Saturday, this 50 Saturday, 52 Saturday a year, that's a lot of training, you know, and that's very valuable. If you stay home, you can have that over a month of training. So in six months, I can put seven months really on the tool that might need it. Some, they all like kids. I mean, they're not going to, some going to. Going to be able to be trained at the level we need them to be in three or four days but some i need six days you need seven eight nine days yeah even some of them i even like put small rides but i will sound on him ride them 15 minutes if it's good it goes back or it's stay tight and i will ride one or two, ride them again. I might ride them 10 times that week.

You know, so it depends. The horse will tell you, but if you have that freedom of only focusing on two, that's the freedom you get and the advantage you get because you can kind of customize the training to the horse. And so when these people are saying, okay, I'm going to bring either one of you guys a horse to ride. This is a touchy subject on the phone calls I have with my customers. And I'm like, stop petting your horse. Stop petting them. If you don't know how to halt or break them or you don't have the right facilities, don't even halt or break them. Just take them loose. Because you, I think, and I'm not a horse trainer. I'm assuming you would rather have them at a completely clean slate than one that's already gotten, picked up the bad habits, learned how to get past somebody, whatever.

And so to me, I would rather them just be untouched. Oh, for sure. I see it all the time. Like you have sweet pie, cookie dough, whatever the name is of the horse. And they tell you how trainable, how good it moves. They've saddled it. Saddled it. It's the sweetest thing. You're going to have no problem training that thing to be a level four type of horse. And you stop having pressure on that thing. And it's a dragon. And some of them, it's totally the opposite. You're like, wow, you're a dragon. And I usually kind of buy those. Because then under pressure, usually the change. So I think that's a cool point. And Ty, I know you can attest to this because you and Ty Smith go look at so many yearlings.

And just like what he said, like, usually I want to buy the dragon. But when I walk in the stall, they're looking at you out of the side in the corner of their eye. And their eyes or their ears are super bright. And they're like, I would really prefer that you don't touch me. That's probably what both of y'all like. But I know for the cutters and cow horses, that's what we like. Person and i think the the best rainer is also getting that way like for a long time we bred more like on the quiet side i think now we're bringing on the edger one i think every i mean every trainer is gonna have a style that they like most but i think the the winner in the raining are getting more edge the level four winners yes they're getting way more edgy as far feel or you know, disposition, I think that's, you see it.

I remember when I bought a little man car smoking in the boys' room. I was looking at a type of breeding that I liked. And there was three mares like this. And in the pasture, two of them came to me, pet me. I cannot get them off of it. And there was another one that was running away, cannot catch it, cannot get close 30 feet from it. Look at me. And I said, I want that one. And that one turned out to be pretty good, a very good horse. But like, I think those horses too has a way of thinking where they're going to rebounce. And that's why I look into my prospects personally is like the fact how they're going to think their way through. And if you can channel that in what you want to do with them, then it's phenomenal.

Ty, when you and Ty Smith go look at yearlings, let's talk a little bit about that and what you guys look for. and all the way from how they are to be around to how they move in the round pen? Well, for us, I think it's a little bit different because we're not always looking for one specific discipline. Even like we go to the Cove of Charter sale and we've bought a lot of really good rope horse prospects out of there and then we'll buy the cutting horse prospects, cow horse prospects. You know, so we kind of look at them all a little bit different as individuals and on what we're, what we're after, you know, but a rope horse, obviously we're looking for more size and a rope horse. We don't mind them being a tick more on the quiet side, you know, a cutter.

We're looking for that electricity that you're talking about, like right eyes, very athletic. You know, we try to watch them work in the round pen if that's possible at the fitting facilities. Pay a lot of attention now they move. From no matter what, I mean, it's confirmation, number one, watching them walk, how they're built. And then, you know, for a cow horse prospect, we're really paying attention to how they look more like what I'm sure you're looking for. But there's all of those boxes, you know, and we just kind of go down the list of confirmation, how they walk, how they act. Do they seem to have a lot of feel? Are they dull? you know like or to in a mouth and then if we can watch them in the round then how they move you know and some cutters some of the best cutters that we've had are not the greatest movers in a reigning sense you know we're in a cow or sense a lot of times because we don't have to look in the cutting you know so it's a lot more about how quick they are to the ground how clean they are with their front end and.

Also, at the end of the day, the best ones seem to be able to do whatever this one you want. The very best. Very, very best. And I think that's like, when you think of, there was probably well over a thousand yearlings at the cutting maturity sale this year, I know. And the best ones are maybe 1% of those? Yeah. I mean, the best ones. And as far as evaluating them from a yearling standpoint, and I think it's sometimes hard for people to understand that, you know, Cookie Dough didn't have the top 1% of the horses at the maturity cell. But sometimes the one that's the most winningest mare of all times, most producingest mare of all times, doesn't have one in the top 1%. But sometimes that one that year, a lot of times, just wasn't the best one.

And so one thing I think is kind of cool to hear both of you say that I haven't heard you speak a word of yet is bloodlines, like genetics. Like we have so many people that want to, they want to literally flip through that book and take the forcemanship out of it and just read the black type. And it's not that that's not a factor, of course, into what we look at. But in you guys talking about it from a trainer's perspective, I haven't heard you say anything yet today about the way they're bred. And I think that. I would love for you guys to talk a little bit more about that and full siblings and all of that and know that that is a factor and it's definitely going to affect their price. But what I love about what both of y'all have talked about is you are evaluating the individual.

But that is something I think a lot of people miss. And that's where the true horsemen rise in the ability to pick horses. And that's why for example ty smith can make a living buying for people at sales because he has spent a lifetime learning yes to evaluate your legs he has spent a lifetime as much as you guys have studied training horses he has studied picking horses and so that you know that is is something that i think well i'd love to hear y'all's opinion on that and and pedigrees i guess is where i'm for sure i think i i think that's one of the last things i can actually check on on the boys for me is yeah it's very important especially if my goal is a resale or like if it's for buying a customer and they have their personal goal on that horse so what they would like to accomplish or if it's for me to ride or you know any goals so at the end the bloodline is very important because I'm going to have to make decisions based on what we are looking for to do.

But it is also the last thing I check personally. The first thing I check when I go to buy one, it has, something has to attract me. And I don't know, like at that point, I had zero criteria, something has to catch my eye. Like it has, it could be the color, it can be the confirmation, It can be just the way it's acting. It can be just... You know, Nick Dowers was a mentor of mine. Like, he told me about the Futurity Champion that he rode just because he stretched his neck out of the stall and saw the face. And I totally get that. Like, we talk about this. And it's like, I cannot tell you, but the first thing, they need to catch my eye. I look at a group and it needs to catch my eye. When I go to the Legacy Cell, the Futurity Cell, I don't look at the board thing.

I look at them in the stall. And I just walk through the stalls and then I will check. And then if I like something, obviously now I can look at the breeding, but that's not what I really want to do. Is I want to get them out of the stall, look at them, like you said, confirmation wise, how they walk. And if I can get them moving. I don't know, especially for the reining. Because, I mean, if it doesn't catch your eye, it's not going to catch the tree. Yeah, exactly. I don't have a cow to run after. Right. So, you know, it's, I can't show off that part of it. I have, it has to be attracting, but a beautiful solo can be extremely attracting. And, and even I bought multiple horses that maybe on the bottom line, broad line, like the mother done nothing, or maybe the grandmother did something, but even I bought some rainers out of cow horse mares that was beautiful and they made great money or great horses.

But I bought them because they had something that you know obviously they checked the boxes but first thing I catch them and if you were to tell me something else about that horse and just not. Being quiet about it like maybe i would have passed it but when i look at it i was like whoa this is beautiful i need to have that horse and you know hopefully it turned out good but yes it's probably it's very important for sure especially if you're looking at resale because i also have to think the way other people think not just my way that's i could buy a lot more horses if it was just for me to ride at the end. That's a really important point. And so, you know, at the end, I have to know like, okay, my customer wants to resell or I want to resell or, you know, or they want to breed.

So let's say the mare might end up getting crippled or done nothing. Well, we need to have a bottom line that done really good. So if the mare doesn't work for then it can turn out to be a brood man later on so fair broad line at that point it's important it's i'm not ignoring it but the first thing is definitely for me this if i have to check a box before confirmation and movement they have to attract me something i don't know it's you you see a man or woman walk by and you're like just they didn't see it say one word and you you look at it yeah it can be not aesthetic it can be just presence you know and i think that's a sensitivity that you develop and you start like observing learning and then you start comparing and then you try to repeat it you know and that comes from a lot of experience yes for sure well and i think you i know just because we've shopped these horses together and you and ty make most of most of the decisions on the yearlings you're going to buy, of course.

But I know that we've gone through like, man, I love that horse, but I've ridden several by that stud. And I just haven't gotten along with them. Like, do we think this one's going to be any different? But gosh, I love them as an individual. So I think that that pedigree comes in. It's I think the pedigree is maybe the last step of what you look at as far as but it probably is going to decide what they bring. Like sometimes you might have an individual you love, but it's by a step that's not trending at the moment. And well, we've had that happen several, several. And maybe, you know, there's somebody else has had bad experiences with cold side of a particular mare. And so people had kind of quit on it. And there was your gun in there and, found them and saw the the parts that we did like and i've done it without having any knowledge that none of those babies anybody's like to them and we just buy it and i don't have any knowledge of that and then later i find out oh well all the babies out of that mare have been this way or that way and yeah i'm i'm glad i don't always have that knowledge yeah for sure because we would have missed out on on some really good horses i mean you know and so let's talk a little bit now into incentives.

And I think incentives are, have been amazing for both all industries, the reining, the cutting, the cow horse, the roping, barrel racing. I mean, the stallion incentive programs have completely changed the game. They've given us so much more money to win. They've made it where when we tell somebody, hey, you should buy this T-Roll for a half a million, it actually has the opportunity to pencil for them, even on earnings, which was not a possibility, you know, four years ago, most of the time. And so these incentives have really come up the last two to five years, I think. And I think they're going to continue to and more money is going to be added. Now, my question for you guys is how much does or doesn't that come into play when it's time to pick your yearlings to come into your two year old programs?

Well, like it or not, this is an industry that's based on people's love for it and it is a hobby in a sense you know traditionally but at the end of the day money is money and people don't like to lose money so i think the the part of the incentives that i've found beneficial for everybody is that. If you can win more money, people will spend more money. I mean, to me, it's very simple. And so all the way down from the guys showing, having a shop to run out more money, and then down to us on a two-year-old side of it, whether it's a horse that we are planning on selling or a horse that's going to go back into training with someone else to go show or we're going to show it ourselves. It ties in the whole, it's just a filter down effect the whole way.

Even as a breeder too, because you could sell your urine or your wingling maybe for that reason. And then after, depending on how good the host works for the disciplines we need, let's say it doesn't, well, there's all the program that maybe that host can jump into and has value. So I think it does benefit for a lot of people, everybody in the industry, for sure. And on the two-year-old side of it, too, with the incentives, when we're talking about like an investment, like so we're going to the sale to buy a yearling as an investment, we need auctions. And that's like I liked what you said before, like, OK, we're going to buy a Philly. If it doesn't work out, then maybe we can get our money back as a breed mare.

You know, so I always look at all of those worst case scenarios. Yes. And I try any new customer I have that comes in and wants to buy a yearling or send a yearling. We look at incentives a lot because if they buy a stud that's in rope horse incentives, cow horse incentives, cutting incentives. You know, for me, with what I do, those three disciplines, if they can check all three of those boxes, we got options. Okay, so this yearling comes in. We try it as a cutter. Okay, well, it's not very cow-y. It's not very athletic. in that sense, going left and right, but maybe it looks really good. So maybe we have a shot for a big cow horse. Maybe we have a shot for it to be a rope horse as a MF size and is the right mentality.

So I think it, for me on that side of it, it just gives us so many more auctions because they're not all going to do the discipline that we have wanting to do. And I'm sure no different for you in the rainers. There are a lot of rainers that don't make, but they're going to be an exceptional rope horse. Yeah, or ranch riding. or ranch rider. And I think now, too, we're seeing where you guys, and I know at least on Ty Benson's side and probably yours, too, like. Six months in you have a really good feel for what this horse is going to be and maybe they are going to work for the intended purchase discipline which whether it's the cutting or the reining or whatever it is or they're not but they're not so far along now six months in as a two-year-old that you can redirect the discipline where so i feel like before i think the tides have changed a lot because before you tied i can't speak to the reining as much but in the cutting we would probably try that horse way further into their three-year-old year but now we're kind of proactively re-evaluating the roadmap in summer of their two-year-old year because those disciplines are so tough that you know if like he said they may not go left and right as well as we hoped they would or they just don't want to be a cutting horse but that they didn't want to be a cutting horse let's say but they're a really good horse and they're going to be exceptional in the healing like Ty knows then it and I might be saying this wrong but you know at six months in we can put a little bridle in their mouth and get them to where they start following their nose and start getting them to where they're ready for those guys as three-year-olds to go and start roping on because if he keeps pulling them around on a cow until the end of their two-year-old year we're behind in the roping they're probably mad because they're sick of being a cutting horse and Ty's tried to make him one the best he can but he doesn't want to be and that horse is is probably gotten to where he's wanting to cut too much for the roping. We don't want him to be that.

We need him to be cow-y, but in a different way for the roping. And I think that goes the same for the cowers. We spend our whole two-year-old year cutting on them. It's not that we can't catch them up in the raining, but now really they need to be working on the raining six months into that two-year-old year where five years ago that wasn't the case. And so I think as these have all gotten tougher and tougher and tougher, we are seeing you guys make those decisions much earlier so that we can reroute those horses correctly. Into wherever they need to go. I have three points to say. What we've been talking is like, I totally agree with you. But that's also the host needs to have enough consistent for that six months to say, okay, it's working or not working.

That's a great point. It needs to be free of resistance, no body work, no at least some basics of something to say, okay, it's working or it's not working. I think that's what Tai said, like making him a good citizen. Yes. That's really the first six months to amount of time. Yeah, my goal as a trio guy, I mean, like it's, I'm, there's thousands away of training oils. I'm not, I'm not walking on water. The thing is, what my goal is, is to make a nice toolbox with all the tools in it, with zero resistance, with as much possible confidence in the oils of what they know, the ability they can be with their, what they were offering. As far as potential, because they're all not as talented, but at least the best they can be.

And so I can give that toolbox to the next guy and he can sharp things up or whatever. But you're going to have to start that toolbox pretty damn quick. And you're going to have to spend time to make that toolbox and put the tools in it. And so you can make the decision, oh, that's a good one. That's not working here. It can work there. So I think that's my first point. To go back to be able to make those decisions as far as like where we're going with ours and so we can change programming and programming can become a rocker or ranch riding, a rainer whatever we decide depending on. Somebody put the work into it. I think also the second thing, going back a little bit, what we were talking about is I missed a bunch of sale on some really nice horses for good money because they were not in those programs.

Not in the stallions. We're not nominated, the specific. Yes. And then so my wife and I, and with some customers that have been working with me, I had to change a little bit what we were buying. I will go buy some popular studs that were not in those programs and maybe some younger studs that were in those programs. At least when it was started, it was more for the younger studs. So we went and we bought one or two of the big popular studs that's proven, one or two that was in the younger, because I didn't want to miss the sale. I spent so much time for me or my customer to make that voice an amazing sale because it's not in those programs. The guy who's going to buy the horse, the only thing is the customer or them want to do one of them in the program.

So I think those programs are awesome, but also you're going to have to make those decisions as a breeder or whatever. And as a buyer, now me as a buyer, I make decisions. I say, okay, we have too many popular stead. Now let's go buy some new ones. probably what a lot of the listeners on here have heard on our podcast was we just have this whole deal about genetic diversity, this two-year rule that got overturned at AQHA. To give a quick summary of it for anybody that didn't know about it, AQHA had a rule that if a stallion was born in 2015 or later. You could not use their frozen semen two years after they died. And so that felt pretty unfair to a lot of people developing these young stallions.

And where I'm going out with all of that here is, well, we got that rule overturned, so that's no longer. But. There was a lot of conversation amongst the stud book committee about genetic diversity, genetic diversity, genetic diversity. And the stat was something along the lines of less than 1% of the stallions that exist today breed over 20% of the mares that exist in the entire mayor population. And that's big. That's crazy. And these guys were like, well, you know, we've got to figure out why. I can tell you why. This conversation right here, it follows the money. And so the incentives have done amazing things for our industry but we all three right here know that the fact of the matter is sometimes either they don't bring enough or we don't buy some that we really like because they're not in anything and you can't go win anything on them i mean you can go win we were talking about it in a rope horse podcast yesterday and this is just one example but it's the same in the cutting the cow horse and the rope and the reigning with the old west with our fraturity with gold buckle royal crown you can you it will it is not going to take long a horse is going to have won over two million dollars as a four-year-old we figured nala that died that miles had if he would have won everything on her if she was a four-year-old this year and everything he won on her he'd have won as a four-year-old you want over two million dollars owner.

I mean, so you can't not, you can't not do it. And that's where, you know, like our stallion incentive now is in. The cutting and all of that. And, and we had to bring that to the table to make sure these stallions stay competitive in it. And so, you know, that's one thing I think is important to point out. It's like, yeah, sometimes you guys would love to ride some of these other ones, but it's, it's just the fact of it. It just doesn't pencil. And, and I hate it and I get it, but it's the game and we don't make the rules, but we have to play the game, you know? And so that is the game now is some of this incentive game. And it is going to bottleneck our genetics, I think a little bit on the stallion side.

Now, the mares, that's where the diversity is going to be so important in them. And so I think you're going to see some people starting to try to do like, hey, let's breed to dog stylish oak or dual ray or, you know, I don't know. You guys said, you know, top style whiz. I don't know. Something that is going to have a mare that's maybe going to be a little bit more of an outcross on some of these stannies. We're going to have to have them, those mares. And they may not be winners, but they're out of maturity champions or whatever. Because there wasn't enough money to win on them to train them. So you just make a mare. I think it's going to be interesting to see in the next five to ten years how all of that kind of, you know, what it does to our horses. I think we have the best horses we've ever had.

And with all the breeding technology, I think it's just mashed the gas on how fast we can replicate these great horses and try new crosses. You know, where a mare used to have one a year, now we can have her have four a year all by a different stud, which just accelerates. Okay we know this cross works let's try to replicate it again with the stud bred similar the same stallion i think that's why we're seeing these horses just every year they're unbelievably better every year yes yes so um okay so let's talk a little bit about resale value two-year-old sales and i'll start with you tie on this explain to somebody that wants to go and be a part of the two-year-old and sell, you know, how that looks.

Can they raise one? Can they buy one as a yearling? You know, then what do they do and how do they get it in the sale? And does it matter who it's with? Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot. There's a lot to that. First of all, everybody wants to. Everybody wants to go on there and ring the bell as an owner or a trainer. And, you know, Kai and I started doing it, whatever it was, three or four years ago. And at the cutting fraternity sale specifically, because that's really our biggest showcase sale for two-year-olds. But, There's a lot that goes into it, number one, having the right horse to begin with, and a lot of that does play into that with incentives, and it just has to be a good one. Like it, and it's not that easy to break into, in my opinion, because I came from the cow horse originally.

And then, you know, the last five, six years I branched over into the cutting. So it took me quite a while to number one, get my training up to part and also just have the connections, relationships with the trainers and all that. So, I mean, to answer your question, I'm kind of rambling, but to answer your question on from an owner standpoint, maybe you can raise one if you have the right stock. You know, there's whatever there was in the yearling sale last year, 800 yearlings. I mean, we get a lot of our horses out of the yearling sale. So I think it matters, number one, what horse you have. And then two, there's a ton of us doing the two-year-old sales now, especially in the cutting fraternity.

And it matters who's on them as far as relationship with the trainers who are going to be buying them or having their customers buy them. And it takes a long time to build that trust. And it takes a long time of consistently bringing good horses, consistently being honest about what your horses are. And just having a trust with all of the trainers that are shopping owners, the whole deal. I mean, it's a whole career, you know, no different than the, breaking into being a show horse guy and going through all the steps and paying your dues to where you do have a shop to win something, you know, it's very, very similar in the cutting fraternity sale to showing. I mean, it takes a lot of time and a lot of effort as on the trainer side of it, you know.

For me, so there's multiple points. If we look at the owner, if I'm talking to your owner. First, you never really know when the next champion is going to come to you. So, I mean, even Peanut that has been raised by grandma over there that has a nice room where that done nothing could become a really good sale or even a champion. So, you don't really know where the next champion can come. Now we know by experience and reading and all this that we have a higher chance for sale or even championship that we have. Maybe breeding, it's very important. We know that. That's a fact. But you don't know that. Also, I think for my customer, they also have to understand the game too. And so you kind of have to educate them a little bit.

Depends on the customer. But some of them, you kind of have to explain. You know, they have to understand the rule. It's like poker. You know, at the end, you can be really good at poker. You can study the game. You can work at it to be better. But at the end, it is a game and it is a game ball. So you have to be able to take that step. And so we can study all we want. It's still poker and you still get void. So they do have to understand why this one sold for $150 million or whatever. And why this one, Peanut, got sold for $75,000 or $25,000 or $100 million. But they have to understand. And also, I think those are the hardest conversations. Yeah. And it's worth what somebody is willing to give or take.

So at the end, you know, I have multiple examples of little peanuts that rise up and be making good money and also some big time wine bread. Show up and did okay. At the end, if you, I mean, I don't know the race horses, so my analogy might not be good, but like you can buy a great race horse. If it doesn't run fast enough, it has no value. Right. While raining is the same thing. It does have value in the raining, might have value in other places. Sure. But not in the raining. So they do, as a standpoint, as an owner, if I think about them, it's like they need to understand peanut my rice, you know, You don't know which one. You might have higher chance to not spend your money on peanut and spend your money on one that is kind of proven in the family. That's a point.

Second, understand what we're playing with. If your little peanut or the champion you bought or the prospect champion you bought doesn't run the way we need them to run, well, it has no value. I mean, I had multiple examples with some customers to explain to them that their buyer was for $25,000, they put $20,000 in training, where $45,000 in. And I'm telling them, if you sell for $25,000, we hit the jackpot and they think I'm crazy. I say, it's not like real estate. It's not car sale. If that boss doesn't do his job, it has no value in the industry. Well, it has less value. Less value, fair. And so... You know, I think that as a standpoint, when you breed or owners walking in to look at a prospect, they do have to understand those rules and what they're playing. We're playing poker here. We're not.

There's, you know, yes, you can. Really long game. Yes. And then you need to, you know, if you're going to sponsor my poker playing, make sure you know that I can do that job well. And that's where you say it's like experience, reputation, you know, those things relate. So you need to pick who you're going to play poker with if you're going to sponsor something but you play poker that's a great that's a great analogy and I think one thing you guys have both said that I think is really important is reputation because we can, we being not me not a horse trainer horse trainers can as two year olds make these horses do some very deceiving great things that look amazing through a video and I think the fact is that might work for one year but, they're going to read between the lines and figure out who's got cow horses and who's got mechanical horses.

And, you know, that is where you guys come in too. I know it's the same in the raining. You can make a video of one that looks amazing. And y'all's integrity has shined through where these guys are understanding who they want to ride behind and they pick y'all's programs because they know, hey, you're going to tell them, hey, here's the weaknesses, here's the strength you know also i know for ty when he has his conversations with trainers he knows a lot of times what that trainer's weaknesses and strengths are and how like hey this horse is really gonna fit you or this is a really good horse but i just don't think it's gonna fit you you know it's like it fits this style of rider better yep and.

But I think reputation is a really big part of it. I think in the cut maturity sale, I've seen this happen a lot through the years, is if I have a trainer ask me about a course, and I know this is a nice horse, but it's an amateur horse, it's a non-pro horse, but maybe I made it look like it was an open horse in the sale video, or maybe on sale day on the auction block, it has a really good day. I have to still tell that trainer, this is a non-pro horse because he's going to buy it and think this thing looks really good. And the cutting is a lot different too. A lot of times they don't even try them. You know, they don't have time. Yep. The schedules don't allow. So at the chemistry sale, I mean, they've got to go in there and just make a decision off my word, video, how it looks that day.

Yeah. and your word is your word means so much and sometimes that means you might cut your customer out of 50,000 that that trainer would have spent if he believed that was an oathed horse then that that doesn't matter because what's going to happen is he's going to buy that horse he's going to realize it's a non-pro horse and then next year he's not going to buy one from me you know i mean honesty is the best policy well yeah for sure i mean your reputation is everything. And it is... Also, that was the point I wanted to... I forgot to talk about. This... Before we make that decision, we're in that six-month period. Actually, some of the biggest trainers in the industry, like the very competitive guy that work with me, they usually call me in that six-month period.

They don't wait for the finished product that I can make at the end of the year. They usually come in that six-month. They call me, say, what do you have in the spring? And those things slide like two feet, you know, but they want to have the most information at that moment. So they and most of them either keep the horses with me for a couple months or the end of the year because they don't have time or when they have time and they'll be all done they might take the horse over I mean but usually the guys are very serious to find a good tool they are in that period of time they call early they want to know what you feel and they want to come try that and I think cadence y'all's cadence and the reining is a little different than in the cutting and the cowers because you guys don't have what I think we have for that like premier two-year-old sale that's like everybody knows they're going to go to the two-year-old sale there's going to be all these horses there and like that just hasn't quite come to fruition no it never really worked I mean it worked for a while in the I think it was before my time I remember when I was more an assistant trainer it was big like everybody was looking it was a show I mean it was awesome I mean like in Oklahoma City everything was back.

I think you guys could sell that six months in for so much. Or so much, or privately too. Private, yeah. And I think some people, I think that two-year-old sale in some ways, and I'm maybe not the right guy to talk about this because. I only took one horse at the Futuri sale, and she was a really nice mare, very well-bred. You know, she looked for less good than she was because there were some other ones. But there was 10 horses when I did the thing. Before, there was like 40, 50, 60 horses. It was amazing. It was a show. The thing we saw in the rating, I think, and it created kind of scarcity for the buyers, is maybe some of those horses were pushed too much. They looked too done. They look amazing for the sale.

And then, you know, end up not competitive, you know, being competitive or fit the expectation of the buyers. So I think it created a kind of scarcity a little bit in the rainy. I don't know exactly why. I don't think I don't have enough experience in that sale. I sell privately. But you also see like some like PS Mega Shine crush who was I mean amazing from the get go done they done such a good job training him promoting the loss went to the sale high seller and I think what that buyer did smart he kept the loss with the trainer end up being a great choice and now sire you know but those are too small of a percentage of success for that sale so I don't so what about this is a question as and it kind of ties into for me more of the cow worse for the for the rainers there and you have to have a great course but you as the as the trainer and the showman.

It's all on you. I mean, you're dictating the maneuvers, your signals, everything. I am the cow. You are the cow. Or is the rider. I mean, and I describe it that way. The maneuver, when we're working on the reindeer, we're the cow horse. The maneuver is the cow. Yes. You know? But for you guys, it's so pinch or cold how the horse was trained, how your cues are placed. So do you think that it's it's much more difficult say say you have that horse its whole two-year-old year and you have a really good feel for it that horse has a really good feel for you and then somebody else comes in and it can be a little bit harder the transition that way is that why maybe and because i find that in the caliber if i think you have a point there for sure i think it's more personal in that way yeah yes but at the end it's a balance of make i will say three things come up to my mind it's a balance of like you know you do have to push the horse in some ways because you have to answer to owners and you're gonna them part of my job is to tell okay it's working not working so i have to push i can't be tree hugging and and say it's gonna work you know i have to put pressure on that horse to know what's going to happen how you train how you handle how you handle pressure how you handle training how good is the ability naturally ability like so there's a balance of that so there's also a balance of like okay i have a good one let's keep moving forward we're going toward the end of the year now the balance is like okay how can i build.

A cool product, attracting to the public to be able to attract sellers, buyers, sorry, but not push it too much where I'm killing the confidence of that horse. That's a balance, but that's very much like pick your trainer. And also, I will say for me, the most important is maybe I might lose a little bit of a cool video, but I will emphasize in that toolbox again. At the end I want to be able to and I will do it in the future I think I'm gonna go buy some kind of prospect and you might try to write them after me and tell me well that's working or not but at the end if I can make a toolbox that might be not super shiny but solid functurable confident. Resistance free then I think that transition actually is not as hard now if I push a rose over the edge and I've got too much to make it too fancy and I'm playing with that confidence, then I think that transition to another rider will be way harder.

But it is a balance because at the end, I still have to promote them as best as I can. So I have to not just lope around in December and slide three feet. I'm going to have to, you know, push to make it attracting. But not forget about that toolbox and build confidence and a really nice toolbox that somebody else can take over and not be lost in it and not having a bunch of tricks in it because I think that's kind of, when you push that confidence edge, it becomes tricks and not broke, you know. Well, and that's where your relationship with the buyers goes into. We fight that all the time and then in the cutting it's it's always well we want to see it just exactly what this horse can do but then a lot of times those horses get bought and it's well that was all there was there's nothing left well you wanted to see this finished product at the end of the two-year-old year but now there's not enough force left and i even i agree with that in a lot of instances, but there's a, there's a fine line.

Yeah. And this, and what the funny thing is also with my experience is like some horses try on this and some doesn't like, you know, you know, you have some horses that actually you need to push them. You know, and then some other ones, no, you need to back up. But I think that's where that period of six months where you say stay home is so important because you're figuring out those horses. They might not be as broke as you want, but you figure out, okay, this one needs a three, four days kind of week. This one needs a 10 ride a week. You know, you figure out where we are in the middle, in the spectrum. But that's where I don't go to derbies is like when I hit the futurity because I tried to ride one or two futurity horse a year because I want to get involved in the process too. I want to get myself better.

Keeps you sharp. Keep me sharp. And I don't, in five years, I don't look like 1980 reigning horses trainer. You know, I was still involved in the thing, but like, you know, in that period of six, seven months of training, when I hit the futurity kind of season, I know my horses, so at home I can manage them too. And some, like, it's going to week off. some can be lobed, some can be trained, you know, but like, I can at least know where I am. And I think that's very important. Yeah. It's super important in the two-year. Yeah.