Episode 27 - From Red Bull to the Cutting Pen: Jay Winborn on Modern Marketing with Melanie Smith

Hi, everyone. This is Melanie Smith with Solo Select. Today, we're very excited to have Jay Winborn here from the NCHA. We've gone into a partnership with NCHA this year to try and help support all of the aged events and our incentive that's going to be going to the cutting for charity. And so today we're here to talk to Jay probably about a wide variety of things. We were discussing a little bit before we got on here of all the different things we could go over. But I think kind of the direction we want to take everyone today is to talk a little bit about marketing and And, you know, of course, how the cutting industry is growing and continuing to grow and change and trends within the industry and all of that.

But I think myself included, I didn't know all of your background before this. I, you know, I knew the different organizations you had been a part of, but I didn't know that you had come from the world of Red Bull, which how cool is that? And so I think, you know, there's I'm sure lots of different stories to tell about that part of your life and things that apply to today. So we'll we'll kind of kick it off with just talking a little bit about, you know, how you got into the position. What what paths led you to the position you're in today? It's a long and winding road. And we want to hear about it. So I grew up in this area for the most part, grew up around horses as a young kid, grew up rodeoing in high school.

I tell everybody, because when I first came to NCHA, a lot of the feedback I got was, this guy is not a cutter. He doesn't know anything about cutting. Punk Carter was my rodeo coach in high school. So ever since high school, I was exposed to cutting. And yes, I have ridden a couple of cutting horses in my life. Through that, I drifted into and got interested in the world of polo. I played and trained polo horses for a number of years, about 15 years. Did it professionally. Got to play all over the world. We were talking earlier about some of the places that I got to play. But it was a great life, great job. Got hurt in 1998, and it caused me to kind of reassess my life and what I wanted to do.

And I wound up moving back to Dallas. I was living in Florida at the time. Moved back to Dallas and I worked in the nightclub industry for about six years. I was a partner in a nightclub. We ran it in downtown Dallas and we were the number one Red Bull account in Texas at the time. So that was my entry to Red Bull. I started out as a consultant for them while I was still running the nightclub. We sold the nightclub in 2004, and then I went to work for Red Bull full-time at that time. And it changed my life. It truly did. I came in at a time when Red Bull was really starting to make the climb. In prominence, they are the number one and still are the number one energy drink in the world that created the category.

And they were doing a lot of really unique things with their marketing, creating events and content. We had an internal joke that Red Bull was a content company that sold a beverage on the side. So long story short, as with any growth in any company, a lot of things changed. A lot of the leadership changed. Come to 2010, I had, it was funny because in 2008 and 2009, I produced an event in Fort War called Red Bull X-Fighters. And just to give you a little quick background, this was a freestyle motocross event that they did originally in Madrid, Spain. And they did it in the Casa de la Ventanas, which is the bullfighting ring there. And it had a bullfighting theme. They later expanded it the next year to Barcelona.

So they had Madrid and Barcelona, and then the third year they went to Mexico City, and it all had this bullfighting theme around it. The sports marketing department came to the various areas and said, we want to continue this but with new concepts. Obviously, you can't do bullfighting here or there. So they did one in Rio de Janeiro that had a carnival theme. They did one in Ireland that had sort of a Braveheart medieval type warrior theme to it. And they were looking for something in the U.S. And they were talking about, let's do it at the L.A. Coliseum and have this, you know, all-American sports theme. And Austria didn't really like that. And they thought about doing it in New York. And I came up with the idea of let's do it in Texas and have a rodeo theme around it.

And we took, if you're familiar with the Fort Worth Stockyards, next to Billy Bob's, there's a 40-acre field. And we created the largest freestyle motocross course that has ever been created. I called friends at Prefert. They brought in bucking shoots. They actually built some of the infrastructure for the event. And we had the riders coming out of the bucking shoots and brought in 19,000 square yards of dirt to build the course. Did this two years in a row. But what happened doing that event because of the theme of it. Connected me back to my old life. We were doing a rider grant entry on horseback. We had a lot of cowboy elements put to this, and I called upon a lot of old friends to cash in some favors, and it really brought me back into that world that I grew up in.

And through that, I was offered a position at HATCO, which was Resist All Stetson. As their marketing director. That time, Red Bull was undergoing a leadership change. They had just brought in a guy from the Middle East to take over the entire Red Bull organization. And culturally, there was a lot of differences between North America and you can imagine. And what used to be a really cool company, like you go out to Santa Barbara, or I'm sorry, Santa Monica, where their headquarters is located, they had this big office with an airplane hangar door on one end and a skateboard ramp, and people would have their dogs in the office and walking around in shorts and flip-flops. It became a very rigid, very structured deal, and they lost a lot of people at that point, self-included.

But I will never talk bad about the company because they were a trajectory for me to work to where I am now. So they brought me back into the Western culture through the event I did, it took me to Hack Co. Worked for HATCO for a couple years, decided I didn't want to be in the retail garment business. I wanted to get closer to the horses. Position came open at the ring Cowhorse. I found out about it, oh, I think four days before they were interviewing. Flew out there, landed the job. They hired me, and Cowhorse never looked back. Never looked back. We were able to really... It was great because I have been fortunate both associations that I've taken over have been at a point where they were in need of a redirection, and were at a point to where they were willing to accept whatever came in and caused that.

Because quite honestly, neither of them could have gone down much further than they were when I got there. And I'm not trying to sound egotistical. It was just these things can be very difficult to run, but in reality, they also can be very easy to run if you're doing what you need to do. So, long story short, that's my world of how I got into association management. Rain Cow Horse was a great experience. It introduced me, obviously, to the cutting world as well again. And it's been a great ride so far. So, what year did you start at NRCHA? I started in, my official start date was 2013. Okay. So, then you're, so you were obviously there whenever it transitioned from Reno to Fort Worth. I caused that. Which is the greatest thing that ever happened. I mean, I think.

It absolutely was. Reno is great. I'm glad that they still have that culture and that show out there. But I just don't think there's any way it would have, evolved like it did until it came here. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it'd be around still. I mean, yeah, it would. But not like it is. It'd be very, I don't know, tough right now. It would not be a bona fide industry that it's become. And... I love the Ring Cow Horse. Great event. There were hardcore West Coasters, and I get it. It's their culture. It's where the sport originated. And I acknowledge that. I was happy to. And I have, being a Texan, I have nothing against California. You know, there's this unwritten rivalry, supposedly, between the West Coasters and the Texans. And everybody I've talked to, I don't know where it exists.

I married a Californian, so, but it's, this is the heart of the industry here. And if you want to play with the big boys, you have to. And I equated kind of my experience in polo. I never wanted to go to Florida because I was, quite frankly, intimidated by it. I was scared. But only when I went to Florida is when I got halfway decent playing polo. Same thing here. You bring this here, you're now connected. You're now simpatico with the cutting and the reining and everything else that incorporates those disciplines that you do. We've, at NCHA, we have seen so many catch riders come over from the cow horse now that they're here. And there were guys that are hardcore West Coasters that have now relocated here because of the success they're seeing. And, you know, it's the heart of the industry.

So I know back in like 2015, 2016, which is when I just vaguely started getting, kind of an idea about the cow horse through Doug Carpenter and Ty Smith. And they were taking a lot of those horses out there to the yearling sale and hit them and Rick Ford. And so I went to Reno probably in 2015. And, you know, then the horses that were showing you could, you could have an open finalist that was just a nice horse that, you know, had come from the cutting and maybe wasn't going to be an open cutter at the time. And, you know, they could just throw the reining on them and show up at the Cow Horse show. And we saw that happen a lot I feel like like those horses would be redirected in February of their three-year-old year and you'd see them at the cow horse and they would they would get along good and then you know.

If you did that today you don't stand a chance like the the horses that we're seeing 10 years later are, I mean these horses are exceptionally specialized horses that are from day one they better be in a cow horse themed program. And not only are the horses better, they're more trained by the time they get to the maturity. And I think that's just seeing the evolution of how tough that cow horse is getting. And it's nobody's coals at all anymore. It takes such an exceptional individual to be a successful cow horse. So you look at the time period you were talking about, you know, 14, 15, 16. And that was about the time when we started activating the move to Fort Worth. And inside of a decade, you've changed that entire industry.

Tremendously tremendous you have people that are actually breeding for cow horse now yeah where it used to be oh we'll just go to the ncha sale and buy buy something out of there and. I will tell you i love telling this story because when i first started at ncha, austin shepherd stopped me in the uh the loping pen and we were talking and he's he's like, i want to he goes i don't know how you did things at the cow horse but he goes this is very traditional and quite frankly those guys ride our junk and i was, super super offended. I mean because i i had taken a lot of pride because, say what you will about the cow horse people the horsemanship involved in it is far superior than anything else i mean it takes a lot especially nowadays, to get that horse to the finals of the of the snafflebit futurity a three-year-old doing three events three very hard events and i think sometimes even the four-year-old's even tougher when you put them in the hacklemore yeah, so i i was super offended by it but as i got more and more involved with the ncha i realized he was like, you know yeah at one time you were right austin but nowadays that has changed uh the the cow horse folks are are breeding for top quality prospects and not to take to the cutting sale they're, breeding to show in fort worth in october you know with the hopes of of.

Winning the deal, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it just takes, I think it's cool to see how the evolution has gone. And that is because of, you know, some of what we're going to talk about today, which is, you know, your ability to see, and the association as a whole's ability to see the need for it to first off move and, you know, do something outside of the box. Because I think what I've always said, I got death threats over it. I can only imagine because I think I always say like one of and I tell a lot of the college kids that I talk to this, I say you know I think one of the advantages I had coming into this was actually that I didn't have a background in horses and I didn't know all of the unspoken rules and the traditions and who you offend when you do this or that or, I didn't know any of that so I was just like this makes sense why are we not doing it this way you know and so i think.

For you and for this industry it does take some of the out-of-the-box thinking like somebody that's been at red bull with with the you know world-class these people lead the way, it doesn't matter if you're talking to people in the energy drinks or people that sell microphones or tvs or horses when you think of marketing you think red bull comes to the top of your list. And so, you know, to have somebody that came from something that was that used to doing things that outside of the box, and I think same is here is, that is what has changed the trajectory of that association and what I think is working to change the trajectory of the cutting horse association. And so I guess that kind of leads into, you know, how do you combat that in the horse business? Like that, that had to be a little hard to navigate.

At first, it was pretty overwhelming because I. The first show I went to for the cow horse was the Derby in Paso Robles. And I'm not going to mention names, but there were two people involved in the cow horse that were very prominent that I knew before I even worked for the cow horse. Knew who they were. Very, very accomplished. Like, best of the best. And I was very excited to meet them. And I remember something my dad said to me when I was young is, and a lot of people have heard this, you don't want to ever meet your heroes because God almighty, what a big disappointment that was. And I'm not throwing shade at them. It's just... What I saw was a rigid,

two rigid individuals with no vision of what the future could be. And if you absolutely love this sport so much, it's way more than what your history is. It's about the future and building this. You will always be an icon. Don't try and tear it down with you. You know, I remember having this conversation with the people in Reno. We had a big meeting there, and I brought up this analogy about when the pharaohs would die in Egypt, they built the pyramids because they would kill all their slaves, they would kill their wives, they'd kill their kids, they'd put all their worldly possessions inside the pyramid and seal it up, and his reign was done, and that was it. And that was what I felt like was they were trying to get across it's like you can't move this from the west coast well, the west coast besides just the decline in the horse industry out there is a mess right now and I hats off to people that are still slugging away making it out there because it is probably one of the toughest places in the world, to run a horse training operation and show horses.

And we see it both from the NCHA standpoint and I know from the rain cow horse standpoint. But to your point, and getting back to your original question, how do you combat what... Some of these old guard homartes they have with each other, proven success. You know, it was by far the right decision to move this Naflbitt to Texas. This is, again, the heart of the industry. It connects you with everyone. It makes it bigger. And it all ties back into what we were talking about earlier about creating a true industry. This isn't a riding club now. it's a it's a big cow horse is a big industry now and when you think of the marketing that you did you know. One one part of that is convincing an association that it is going to be successful right and and like you said dealing with the old guard and all of that but then the other part of it is just, just the marketing aspect when you just think of how are we now going to convince the public that this is going to be this next great thing.

And, you know, of course, there's excitement, but you have resentment the first couple of years. So what do you put into place in that? Like, how do you think of it? I guess, what is your overreaching theory behind the marketing that you're conducting? So I want to say one thing, and it's before I get into this topic, and this holds true for where I'm at now, the NCHA, and going back to the ring, cow horse, what I have been able to do so far is only about that much of what I truly want to do. But I have to throttle it because you will know this coming from the outside world, the horse industry, even though it's gotten better, we're still about seven to 10 years behind conventional years in here almost every day.

I'm like, just remember the horse business is 10 years behind. You can't post that. They'll be offended. So it's, it's that constant fast push to kind of keep them going, keep them going, keep them going to where, till we get over the hump. And I think we're always going to lag behind a little bit. It's just the nature of our, our industry, but- For me, one of the first things that was very important and what, even though it wasn't the same and I couldn't create a lot of the things that we did at Red Bull for many reasons. One, I didn't have the manpower or the budgets or so I had to do it on the cheap and I had to do it. But I did learn about effective communication and storytelling. Yeah. And I was able to bring in a contractor, and my first thing I did at the Calhorse was restyle the webcast.

Because I will tell you, if you watched the Snafflebit Futurity Finals before 2013, they would literally set a camera in the arena on a tripod and turn it on, and that was it. There was no production quality, nothing. And I started building this and our hopes were, and we eventually got it to, I wanted to have a broadcast quality, product that could be aired. I also don't charge for the webcast. And there's been a lot of discussion, the good and bad. I'm going to talk more about that later. But another thing Red Bull taught me, Red Bull spent a whole ton of money putting girls in little Mini Coopers with cans on the back to go give out free product to allow people to try it. NCHA gets millions of viewers for the Futurity Finals all over the world.

You wouldn't believe the places people download and watch it from. It has bubbled up clubs in Europe. We have a new club in Brazil. And some outer limit places that you wouldn't even think of to where they're trying to cut. So exposure and not limiting who can watch that is obviously a big touch point. These are just a couple of the minor things I learned at Red Bull, but to kind of establish that, the communication, the storytelling, the visual communication, of that to inspire people and to engage people and get them involved. And I was able to refine that. I think the stuff we're putting out at NCHA right now is really good. It can always be better. We all can always be better. But I think it's, I will say that it's the best it has ever been. Sure.

It's, the media's tough and we're sitting in here, for those of you that are listening and not watching. We're in here in our podcast studio that's upstairs, and we've got a whole team of very talented girls here that all contribute in different ways to our media, but it's never enough. I feel like no matter what we do, we set the bar for ourselves, and then we say, that's not enough. We got to do more. We got to do more. And so, as you say, I always try to take a step back and look and say, okay, this is the best it's ever been. NCHA is no question right now. I've never, NCHA didn't have media before. I mean, there was, I mean, that, the chatter, that was, that was the media, you know, and, and times have changed and the chatter is, is, you know, very important to a group of people that are members of NCHA.

And there's another group of it that hasn't opened one in three years, you know? And so I think knowing how to navigate, that's probably, I would assume for you, because I know for us, it's one thing that's difficult to always navigate is we're trying to appeal to this group of people that we need to come up. We need them to come up. You need them to come up. This young group of people and we've got to do things that the older generation may look at and say that's silly or ignorant or whatever, but we've got to appeal to this group of people and then we have to be conservative enough to appeal to that older generation to that once conservative marketing. That's always a battle we fight. I can't imagine trying to fight it within CHA. Yeah.

How do you even navigate it? It is tough. When I got there, the chatter was 12 issues literally coming out every month. First thing I did was I slimmed that to eight. My long-term goals, and I've been very public about this, is I want to do an annual and build that around our stallion issue. Because i think i think regardless of how much you do i still think the tangible, feel of holding that and be able to look through and you know read information about all those horses is very very important because even myself i'll be sitting on the couch late at night and i'll run in and grab, grab the stallion magazine and flip through it and find find it right it's easier than going and searching the web or trying to pull it out it's just quick and easy and, i i want to do something elegant that you know is big enough that you can set it on a coffee table but also to fortify that and, transform the chatter into a monthly video magazine and tell those stories via a program and who knows what legs that could get, cowboy channel has expressed a keen interest I was going to say, having that on Cowboy Channel would be really cool.

It's just getting there. I mean, I've got to build staff, and it's a slow walk. We're still publishing the chatter, and I realize there are people that have the chatter from issue one right next to all their TV guides, you know, that they've saved. Yeah. But... I'm kind of caught because of my age i'm kind of caught in that middle road where i still like print publication, but i'm not as endeared to it as a whole lot of people my age, i've never really attached to the digital magazine yeah, i've had trouble it just doesn't i don't ever want to flip through them yeah yeah i mean i'll scan through them you know but not like sit down and read an article on a kindle or something like that. The video stuff to me is always more captivating more engaging plus, if that is built right you could you can fix it to where, you know people could watch it in segments i mean look at the way people stream programming nowadays most people like when stuff is released they'll wait until the entire series will release and then And they sit down and binge watch it.

So I think in a very similar fashion, you could do that with our monthly video magazine. We're working towards that. We do a weekly deal called NCHA Insider, which I actually started as the Monday Minute where I would get up there and talk about stuff. And then I thought they're probably tired of looking at me. So, we brought in a gal and also, too, she's bilingual and our hopes are to eventually convert that into a Spanish language. That's a great idea. Yeah. Because we're seeing more and more of that demographic enter our ranks as membership. Mm-hmm. But it's all fluid and it's continually evolving. And where we go and how we get there, I'm not sure. We're doing four issues of the chatter now, plus the Futurity Program, which is kind of the year in.

We will continue to work on that. Print advertising is still very prominent for a lot of our people. They really want it. And I've tried to encourage them to, yeah. Absolutely put it in print, but fortify it with XYZ, you know. To me, the best bang for the buck right now we have in advertising is to advertise on our webcast because everybody watches that. Sure, sure. So when you think of trying to... Encourage, I'm going to say, anywhere from my generation down. I'm 32, so, you know, we have, I think the NCHA youth is a really cool set of kids, but then we have a lot of people that aren't. Somebody like me that wasn't an NCHA youth, you know, didn't have the opportunity to, whatever, for whatever reason, maybe rode horses, maybe didn't, but we want to get them into the cutting at some point.

How the heck do you guys feel as an association you can try and target those people? Because, I mean, you and I, like, the elephant in the room of that is, you know, we get the sky is falling people on Facebook that have these discussions all the time. And, you know, you hear the ones that are like, well, you know, the younger generation is not going to come in because it's too expensive and it's too this and it's too whatever. You know, there's too many barriers to entry. And and and there are barriers to entry but you know as an association and as a leader of that how do you think and this is probably a big question not just in marketing do we, do we you me included get this younger generation involved in whether you're talking about the cutting or the cow horse i mean i think the roping is a little bit different i think you could group all that into horse sports because, and i i've i've done a lot on this topic with various other other equine groups ha groups, i question if anybody gets it because.

I brought this up at a growth and development meeting last year at the ncaa, convention and they were talking about doing all this, you know, what if we run ads in this and what if we set up at the fairs and what if we do all this? And I asked everyone, I go, how many people join the NCHA because they got a direct mail piece or they saw something at a county fair or, you know, And nobody raised their hand. And I go, how many people got here because a friend introduced them to the sport? And I would say 85% of the room raised their hand. And I tell this to every youth meeting we have. And I tell it also to all the memberships. Bring a friend. If everybody would bring one friend and got them involved in the NCHA, we would double our membership overnight.

Now, this leads me to the next point of this and something that we're working on right now, because horse associations in general and in regards to membership recruiting, they do know experiential marketing. There is no way for those people, and I don't care if you're roping. Cow horse, reining, cutting, showing Western pleasure. There is no way to test run what you want these people to do. We are building right now within our rules, and hopefully by 28, we will have rules set up for flag cuttings and leasing horses. And it's going to be very limited. It's going to be very limited. But you look at a lot of these trainers and I don't care if they're cow horse trainers or cutting trainers or a combination of both.

There's a lot of guys that are kind of in the twilight of their career that are looking for stuff to do. I see a lot of them at house high school rodeo. They bring out a truckload of horses and set up there and they lease them to kids from Hawaii and Australia and Canada and all over. Why not take that idea and build it in to pockets around the country. And let's say on NCHA days every year, each affiliate club's going to host a flag cutting. And you combine it with the bring a friend concept where the youth kids bring their friends, the adult people bring their friends. We produce a flag cutting. You know, we give away a buckle to everyone that participates. Once they get on, they feel the sizzle and the wiggle.

Eight out of ten times, you're going to hook them. I think that is genius. You're going to get them because it is, it is just, it's too hard to relate. You can watch all the videos you want, go to all the big events you want until that person gets on a horse and feels it. They're not going, they're either going to say, I love it, or I don't want to ever do it again in my life. And more times than not, they're going to say, I love it. I don't know. I don't know anyone that doesn't like riding a cutting horse. Yeah, absolutely. It's so fun. I mean, it's electrifying and cow horse too, you know? So you have got to create these experiential marketing opportunities for people. We used to do a lot of stuff at Red Bull.

There was a guy out of Louisiana. I'm trying to remember his name. Terry, he was a BMX rider, bicycle motocross rider. Well, we would just throw him in a van with his bike and we would drive around looking for kids riding BMX in these parks and then drop him off. And he would go out and ride with them and start doing these tricks. And then pretty soon he had this audience around him and he would start helping the kids do it and they'd find out. And then the Red Bull girls would show up and hand out Red Bull. And it was just a very cool, organic deal. But, you know, by the end of the deal, the kids are calling their friends, come over here, you know, you know who's here and that kind of stuff.

So, looking for opportunities like that, I think are paramount because when I grew up and I'm old enough to be your father's young friend, there was still places where kids that lived in metropolitan areas could have access to horses and go ride. That has all but disappeared now. Horses in general have become an elite sport and it doesn't matter what you're doing.

It costs just as much to keep a rope horse as it does a cutting horse, as it does a Western pleasure horse, as it does a polo horse, on down the line. They all have to eat, shoot, be shot, everything. But obviously, you get into the participation point. That's where things start changing. Cutting is expensive. Cow horse is expensive. Roping can be super expensive, depending on what level you're playing at. But also too the more you spend in participation the bigger the odds and the bigger the checks, so it's all relative i always tell people in the horse deal and the breeding included you know because we get the same thing in the reading like oh it's so expensive and i'm like well, it's not cheap of course it's still a hobby for people they don't have to do it to live you know we all know that but, you can play at so many levels you know we have studs here that go on the special that it's $1,200 to breed to them, and you can enjoy the ride and make a little money, hopefully, on your baby, and you don't have to breed a $100,000 mare to a $10,000 green pey stallion.

There's so many levels you can play at and define your success within the breeding game or the cutting game or the rope horse game or any of them. The one thing I thought of when you were saying that was my favorite thing that you guys have done that I thought was really good was the commercials. I don't know if you call them commercials because I think they were a little longer, but the ones that showed our NCHA members and their family. And it was like, what was the thing? I can't remember. I had just had it in my mind. It was like. Your new lifestyle. That's right. That was, I thought that was genius. I thought that was such a good one. And it really, I felt like it was one that you could play, you know, at some of those deals when people are sitting there looking for something their kids to do besides be on the iPads.

And like, hey, we had, well, it was like your new lifestyle awaits, I think, right? It was so good. That was the whole launch of that because what I did, and I don't know if you ever saw the Yellowstone commercial, but during COVID, I spent a quarter million dollars to produce and run a commercial during the season premiere of Yellowstone. And then I followed it up and came back season eight. I couldn't run it all season. But it was a call to action for a free membership. We got a tremendous response to that. I actually drew in a couple of people that are participating today, but the whole theme of it was, and we can dive off into a deep hole here if you want, because I've talked a lot about this.

And it was a chasm in time that I felt that we needed to act on very strongly. The world was upside down. And a lot of people were very uncertain about where everything was going and what was happening. And you couldn't trust the government and couldn't trust the municipalities and stuff. So people pulled in. And when they did that, I will tell you that 2020 and 2021, we had the largest member renewal that we've ever had. And I'm talking to people that hadn't been a member in 10 years got back into cutting and came back big. And I'm kind of jumping around here, but I'll make this really brief because, and a lot of people have heard this story and I know a lot of people that are close to me roll their eyes when I tell it, but it's evident.

During times of stress in this country, whether it be World War I, World War II, post-Vietnam, you know, nowadays, you look at the patterns that have happened. Post-World War I, when the world was recovering, was the advent of the silent movie cowboy. Post-World War II, you had Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, Lone Ranger, so on and so forth. 60s, you had all the Westerns, the TV Westerns. I'm the last generation of the TV Western. When I was a kid growing up, there was three Westerns on every night. Fast forward to 1980, there was a movie came out called Urban Cowboy. And it came at a very similar time that we were in with COVID. The Carter administration had just finished up. Gas prices were through the roof.

There was all this turmoil going on long story short it was a huge catalyst and if you look at the membership numbers of all the horse associations aqha, ncha apha this is funny because what kind of horse that do people buy that don't know anything about horses, they had their largest registration in. 1985. So these people go and watch the movie in 80 and all of a sudden I'm going to the Western store, buy a pair, a hat and a pair of boots and go country dancing. Well, I want to get a little more. I buy the pickup truck. Now I've, you know, the next year I buy the place because I'm really digging this lifestyle. Well, the next thing is I buy my paint horse, but okay. I like, I like the paint horse but i can't really do it number one year of membership for ncha 1986, is our largest membership ever the the futurities during the 80s were like something out of a a movie i mean fur coats and diamonds and we've all heard the stories about it, Anyway, it kind of set a path for cutting, and there's actually people that are huge, huge members of the NC, long-term members of the NCHA that came through that pathway to get there.

Anyway, fast forward all the way up to 2020, COVID hits, Yellowstone's on, you know, people are stuck in their house, can't go anywhere, can't go on vacation, can't play golf. But fortunately, you can show horses. And I acted on it. And the whole point I was trying to make is we're, we're a safe island over here. Our people have core values for them. It's a great place to raise your kids because you go to any horse show, most part, the kids will come up, shake your hand, look you in the eye. They learn at an early age what responsibility is. And I think that that is a very highly promotable thing about these horse associates, not just NCHA, all of them, but I acted on it. And what I wanted to illustrate by showing those stories on our members is what a neat organization this is to be a part of, because it's more than just going to a horse show and showing a horse.

Horses, whatever aspect you're involved in, they do become your life. They become your lifestyle. And it's what your whole ecosystem revolves around, especially when you get seriously involved. And it's, they're generational. These families are generational. And the availability of that anywhere else is pretty limited. I think that it's, you know, we're all searching. I've got a niece and a nephew to live in the middle of Dallas and I'm a broken record with everybody else. You know, I would love for them to be, and they ride some and they're involved. But I think that when you think of marketing, I think what most of what you said boils down to. And this is something that's hard to do in the horse business sometimes, but it's so easy because horses are so easy to love.

Is connecting what we do to an emotion instead of just a transactional marketing piece, which is necessary, you know, just like, you know, we can only. I think before you sat down, we said we have 193 yearlings going to the cut and maturity sale. We can only add so much emotion to each 193 of those. Some of it is transactional. Here is the horse, here's how they're bred. You know, you can transactionally make your decision, but then there is a piece of that, whether it's video storytelling or an article or you know somebody's piece of choice that, that does make people feel like that there's I call it FOMO that they're going to have some FOMO some fear missing out on on being a part of this industry or being having your yearling for the next maturity or you know our next rope horse maturity that, you know we've we've played on that of course with our marketing and the roping incentive or our cutting incentive or our cow horse incentives is like, hey, you know, if you breed to a stallion here, you get to play in our sandbox and it pays, you know.

And also it's cool to be a part of that team. And so, but I see a lot of that in marketing and it's good for us that a lot of people, you and I briefly spoke about this too before we started, you know, when they think of marketing a program or a stud, they just transactionally put it out there and they never connect with anybody on it. And it is hard to do in a volume situation, you know, if you're managing 25 stallions and for different people, and you're like, we just got to get content out, you know. It's hard to do. It's hard to do for NCHA. It's hard to do for us. It's hard to do for the cow horse. It's hard to find creative minds. How do you guys battle that at NCHA? Well, sometimes we don't. Yeah.

I mean, because there's just, people have a, it's set in their mind of what they want and what they visualize this ad. And usually a lot of that is based off past perception of what they've seen. Other people do, and they think this is the way. I have to do this ad in the chatter that looks like this visually, and it has all this stuff, and it's big, and it jumps out at you and everything. And I'm not going to mention the horse, but one of the horses that's in that barn over there, I talked to the owner about a very unique, concept for how to advertise that horse because I wanted to do it all in black and white and I wanted to make it very simple to, where it stood out starkly from everything else and it caused you to look at it and inquire like, what is this?

To seek out the information on it a little bit more than just boom, you know? And I'm not saying that's wrong. It's just not the way that I feel it. Sure, it's just different. Right. But couldn't get them talked into it tried and tried and tried and tried but i i think there are, we're coming to a point where this is all eventually going to change anyway there's a whole lot of people in our industry right or wrong doing the same exact thing, we're trying to push from an association wise we're trying to be different from all the haas out there, to stand above them. And I think we achieve that in a lot of ways where we continue to position ourselves as the tip of the spear, so to speak, from every aspect.

And that is the perception that I want for the NCHA. And I want to be the best. At what we do. And I want everybody to look at us as an example, but I also want it to be welcoming and inviting. So it's a, it's a real tight rope to walk. It is a tight rope to walk. You know, going back to earlier, just want to point something out that I feel is real important that it's something I pushed at the Cowhorse. Something I pushed here is the youth engagement and how we do that because one of the things I did learn at Red Bull is your lifelong habits are established between the ages of 14 and 22. They're the most impressionable point in your life. And I look at my return to the horse and Western industry.

That was a time when I was rodeoing and heavily involved in horses and got interested in playing polo and all this stuff. And here I am deep in the industry. My life has come full circle. I have seen this time and time again and probably the biggest difference, demographic that we as horse associations can appeal to right now that would really help our numbers, our middle-aged women. I've talked to numerous ones and it's like they become empty nesters. You know, the husband goes off and plays golf or goes hunting every weekend. They're looking for something to do and maybe they rode horses a little bit in high school and boom, here they are. They're already familiar with it. They love it. They love the horses. They understand the lifestyle, but they've just been out of it for the past 20 plus years so if you can plant that seed down here, you know the plant may take a turn and go somewhere else but it usually kind of comes back, and that is how you build build keep those membership numbers where they need to be i feel there's always going to be a gap between 30 and 60.

Everybody's getting their kids right yeah Interesting. So. Let's talk a little bit about the growth of this industry. We've talked about how to grow it, but, you know, it has grown substantially since COVID especially. We were talking about the horse sale. How many horses, do you know the total, do you have the final totals of how many are in the horse sale? What I was told is there are 1,400 consignments. And that's unbelievable. Give or take. You know, and I think I talked about earlier the sky is falling. It's almost double. Wow. And we talked earlier about the sky is falling, people. And, you know, I'm sure there'll be some there like that's too many. And it is a lot of horses. But gosh, last year there was more horses than there were the year before. Yeah.

And, you know, I think we kept waiting like, oh, are we going to see some soft spots? Are we going to see some soft spots? But I don't think we really did. There was such a demand still because I feel like there's so many new people coming in or the people that are here are playing at an even bigger level. And so, you know, we've seen it here, just the breedings to the studs. Like you're just like gosh these people like if one's good they buy four you know they just everybody is playing at such a high level so. You know what do you foresee what do you think about that number this year at the at the sale i'm sure you've talked to jeremy a little bit about it yeah jeremy and i had lunch a couple weeks ago and, he thinks it's going to be the best sale we've ever had i don't think it's i think it's i think it's going to be great yeah, you know people are all freaked out about the midterms and more.

In the past 15 years in this industry, I've been through almost every up and down there can be. And the one thing I've noticed is when the breeding reports soften is when you hit a downturn. And it's simple economics because if there's not enough yearlings and not enough two-year-olds, the full crops aren't that big that year, then your futurity entries diminish. Sure. And you run through this little cycle because for aged events to where, it usually takes you about seven, eight years to cycle out of it because then the next year, if your futurity interests are soft next year, the futurity interests are soft and then the super stakes is soft. And then the next year is, you know, and then hopefully you're out of it and back on the road.

The breeding reports are through the roof. Here is kind of my hopes of what will happen because cutting has gotten incredibly expensive to participate in. And there's a lady that lives in Dallas that has a little two-horse trailer and a flag set up in her two-acre backyard that goes to little weekend cuttings that it's becoming more and more difficult for her to find a horse and go compete. I want her to be able to find, you know, a $30,000 to $50,000 horse that she can go show. Or these parents that are comfortable spending that amount of money for their kid. Sure. Those horses are very few and far between right now. Yeah. This may be kind of the sift a little bit. The good horses are going to sell for a ton of money.

We know that. We know that. And we're getting Saudi prices on them now. It's unbelievable. And the great thing is the cutting sale has become the spot for not only the cutters, but the reined cow horse people and some of the ropers. I threw the Western Bloodstock sale this year. I called Jeremy up and said, let's put a $5,000. I'm going to put $30,000 in an incentive to the Gold Buckle Series. If a horse came out of this sale, we'll pay it. So he worked it and we paid out that money. So it incentivizes people to to come to our sale and buy horses you know going back to the austin shepherd statement, cutting bread horses are the pinnacle and where this all ties back to what i said earlier about we want ncha to be the tip of the spear of the pinnacle.

We have the stock for it too, And we'll have a bunch of them this year. Well, I think when we think of, you know, just briefly touching on the rope horse world as you did, that rope horse faturity deal is like the cutting right now. I mean, it's just unbelievable. The growth and the people that are getting into it. And it's cool because there is, once again, there are so many levels. We have all these, we have people that go buy a $5,000 prospect that are having success. And, you know, we saw last year, the first million dollar prospect that are having success. And so I love that. But I. I think it's unbelievable the growth that we're seeing with all that. And I think all these associations are feeding each other. Like the beast is getting fed by all of them. You know, the, the, we see cutting horse people now that they're seeing what the roping's paying, starting to be like, oh, let's get a couple of those rope horses and send them off.

And then we've got ropers that were, you know, quote unquote, just team ropers. Okay. That are not just team ropers now. Like they've bought really good mares, whether we've had a lot of them that have bought cutting mares and then they're breeding them to like a dark side like a big stud right they're breeding them to let's say third edge for the first two babies of the year and then they're breeding them to dark side for the second two and they're thinking oh i've got some cutters coming out of this mare that's 100 000 i'm going to breed them to dark side and then i might breed them to let's leave for a racehorse cross for a head horse, and so i think it's really cool and i think we're going to continue to see these more than ever see these different disciplines continue to cross over to each other.

And I think the more that these disciplines can play into that, just like having the rope horse faturity at the cow horse, I think has been huge for both of those associations. And I would love to see something like that happen in the cutting because I think anytime we can bring all those ropers there for the Snapplebit faturity sale, that has been amazing. So do you know the story behind that? No, but I am really glad you guys did it. I can tell you that. So that was Dean Tufton and I sitting in Reno in a restaurant. And he came to me with the idea and it was amazing. It was our last year in Reno because we were moving to Fort Worth the next year. And it's so funny because I tell this story a lot and I laugh about it.

That night, we had had a bad storm. My wife and I lived at Dallas at that point. And we had had a bad storm and Dean and I are sitting there talking about this. And we're like pitching ideas back and forth. And my wife is just calling incessantly, like one call after another, after another. And I said, would you excuse me a minute? And the lights had gone out in the house and the power had gone out. And I'm like, you know, just got to sit and wait and see what happens. But Dean was laughing about it. But from that conversation, we got the idea for the rope horse. And Dean underwrote it and put it together. And it has then developed legs of its own. And always was a good fit. But Dean had the vision of, to your point, getting those people there for the sales to sell some of those prospects to the ropers.

Yeah, and I think it's brought a lot of, like I saw ANC has a Snapplebit Vitruity entry this year. And Shad Mayfield's customer, they've got one with Corey going this year. And I think all of that is years in the making of that being there, those guys getting to be a part of that. Well, they go watch it. And then they go to the, well, they show up to the Petruti and then they're like, well, we got to go to the final. Yeah. You know, of course, like we're going to go to the horse hell and then we're going to go to the finals. And like, then you have these people that get hooked to it. And I can't stand not having a horse show on. Exactly. And so I think the more that we can continue to integrate these different things, the better it is.

We're starting to see some crossover too from the quarter horse racing side of things, which is cool. That group is starting to say like, oh, let me get in on breeding my racehorse mare to third edge or to shoddy or to MVP. We've had a lot of them breed to MVP. And I think it's going to be so cool to see this. But that's the kind of people that are doing it. You know, one thing that I've thought that we've got headed our way is, and I think this will be really cool for what you're talking about, getting some of this to grow. When I was at the AQHA convention last year, we had the guy that owns my racehorse come in. And I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but it's a fractional. They sell, they call them micro shares of thoroughbred racehorses. Syndication, yep.

And it's a little bit different than the syndicate because it's like, you know, we syndicated Shoddy, for example. And those people, there's only 50 of them and they're very involved in the day-to-day decisions. This is through the sec like you're buying stock yeah and so they're not involved per se in the day-to-day of it but they buy a little piece and they get to be on them on the journey with this horse and so we have, we're doing a reg a filing with the sec right now and with some help from from that guy that has been through all parts of it. To have a deal called the Solo Select Owners Club, where we'll have like one of the ones we're going to put in there as an embryo out of Black-ish, for example.

So like for $80, or I don't know what the share prices will be, but for example, $80 or $100, you can come in and get online, buy your one share of the Black-ish embryo. And it, you know, theoretically, I think it is a metallic gray mink. It'll be a full sibling to a faturity champ. And then you get to own a little piece of that and come along with the ride. Whether it's we say, hey, we think the best thing for this group is to sell it as a yearland or to sell in the two-year-old cell or to take it all the way through and show it. And I think when we think of all these different groups of people we've talked about today, whether it's the person that wants to kind of get into it but doesn't know where to start.

They don't know how to get to the horse shows or how to talk to the trainers or where to even begin, they can come in and buy a couple of shares of one like that and just be along for the ride, get a little education, get, you know, get their feet wet, show up. If they buy into a show horse, they can show up and come watch that horse show and say, I own a piece of it. And so we saw a lot of success with that in the dark side. And I think when we did it with dark side, we put him into a hundred shares and syndicated him. And those people got some breedings and all that. But I tell you what it did was it gave those people a way in. And now some of them are our biggest customers and they are in deep to this deal and they are having a blast you know they got to have that horse, trevor rode it they went and watched him at the horse shows or to your point watched him online which has been a game changer to be able to we send a text out about 10 minutes before he would show and say hey, click this button and watch your horse show you know and how fun is that to be able to do yeah.

And then a bunch of them bought them and like, oh, we just want to buy them for an investment or whatever. Well, they have mares now. They bought embryos. And so I think when we talk about getting new people into, I think there's so many cool opportunities for what you're saying with getting them into the flag cuttings and like, what a great way to do it. And like you said, we've got these trainers that are starting to get into the point of their career that they don't want to ride 50 a day or 40 or 30 or 20. You know, they want to ride a handful of them a day. And then they can get some of these people gathered up at these flag cuttings and some of that that want to come take lessons and i mean that is a win for the association it's a win for that group of people and it's a win for the young people or, any age people but green people that are coming into i'm i'm trying to figure out i think that is a genius i'm i'm trying to figure out a way for the association to under underwrite it and we will get there it's just going to take a while snowball and build.

And I love, love what you're saying about the, the micro shares of horses. I've envisioned something like that for. Ncha forever if somebody could have owned you know i i wish we could have gotten to do it two years ago but just think if we could have taken somebody on along the ride for us that owned a tenth of a percent but still, of shoddy and gone through his five-year-old year with them and then gone through his six-year-old year and gotten to see kenny show him and went i mean you're hooked after that oh yeah like it's we i told the girls the other i was like girls we're not, y'all better enjoy this because the chances of us getting another one that's been this fun is slim to none but how cool would it have been if we could have brought a thousand new or existing members, in and had them be on that ride with us and even if just one percent of those came in or or five percent that's 10 to 50 people so, this is a this is a good jump into something that i wanted i I wanted to visit about and get kind of your ideas because.

Going back to Red Bull, and we've seen this a little bit, events like the Run for a Million, events like the American do a lot for the visibility of our industry. You know, Red Bull got to a point where we didn't want to just go to the Supercross and sponsor a rider. Yeah, we did that, but we wanted to produce our own events. Very special. And I remember sitting up at the American when they moved it to Dickies. And I still, for me, the best was when it was at Globe Life. I just, I love the cathedral feel of that building, the uniqueness of it being inside a baseball park and not just another rodeo arena. It just had a really cool, unique feel. And I've often played with, let's do a cutting at Texas Motor Speedway in the infield during one of the races or do something like that.

For a long time, these guys and these trainers have had this idea for a top 10 horse of the year run. I would love to put together the, and I will say this, and I don't think anyone that will disagree with me because everybody I've talked to agrees with it. The American, especially the last year they had it here at Dickies, the cutting was the best represented event by far. And I'm not saying that because of my background. I'm saying it because I've watched a whole lot of reigning. I've obviously run the Cow Horse Association and run the Cutting Association. It was the best received by the crowd. It was the easiest to understand what was going on and why it was going on. And with the visibility of the big screens and everything, you could really focus down on those horses and watching them work and watch what they do and, watch those horses' minds work as they work those horses.

Whereas the cow horse, the arena felt a little short for those guys to really get any speed up and go. And I think they would really admit it. And, you know, the rainers that came out, I think over half of them scotched and, you know, overspun. And it just, I just had this idea of taking this top 10 force of the year competition and seeking it somewhere as a standalone special event and really build up around it. And to your point, I mean, maybe there's opportunities there to build it more than just the spectator event. Sell micro shares into the or, build it into a much bigger thing than it really is. Point I'm making is. Part of Red Bull's success was because they created the stories and they created, the attention and they created what drew people into their brand.

I think, I think coming to, coming to a horse show, unless you're a intensive horse person can be a very puzzling, boring experience. I think. And especially if you don't have anybody to kind of sherper you around the, of what's going on. It's tough. And I always thought that was why some of the online sales have done well, including the Western Bloodstock one, because you weren't overwhelmed when you showed up. You know, you walked in to the Western Bloodstock sale and sometimes it's a big set of lights and a lot of fancy, shiny things, you know. Loud and you know and whether it's that or just having the availability of online bidding at the yearling sale like i have a lot of customers that i know for a fact like oh i bought this horse, in the online bidding deal at you know the yearling sale last year and i'm like well why did you do that and.

Basically it's because they felt comfortable pressing a bid button but they were scared to walk into that big place and, you know raise your hand and so all of that to say like what it can be very overwhelming and i think as an association that's one thing all of us have to remember me included you included horse trainers included of when we see these people walking around looking clueless that we go up and, and talk to them and say like who are you what are you doing here that's awesome you know do you want to come see this horse do you want to come do and that's where dark side worked so well because we had those people that could click online buy a share be a part of it, then they felt like when they showed up they knew where they were going in a good direction.

I got to go find Melanie or Miles or Trevor and I know where I'm going and now they feel comfortable when they show up. Yeah, it's a touch point that actually... Becomes a connection it's exactly and lots of different ways to enter that but i think we all have to remember to foster that as a you know as an association as equine participants in anything, so we'll we'll kind of finish up here talking a little bit about you know we could we could spend a whole podcast episode on this but the, the incentives that are coming up everywhere you know and the money that you can win so we've got the cutting incentive coming up this year that's going to continue to grow and, i mean this is the age-old question you know and i know the answer to it but, it's changing the way the cut i mean all these different incentives that we're doing valley is doing sixes i mean we've all done our best to put these really great incentives together and you know.

It's outsider looking in that i don't you don't breed mares much i don't think do you at all how does it tell me your opinion on all that how it's changing the landscape, well it's it's definitely increased participation, substantially you know it's it's i had a 13 year old kid last year, when the non non-pro i think it was one of the non-pro divisions walked away with 450 000 oh my gosh, Because of the incentive. That's life changing. Yeah. I mean, it's, and again, it's where I want to be. I want us to have the biggest incentives that are out there. And I love you guys kind of that put these packages together and trying to outsmart what the last one's done. Absolutely. And be really unique and creative. The hard part from an association side, and I will say this, that has been puzzling is we have a massive amount of horses that are entering the Hall of Fame really, really quick.

I'm glad you said that because that is something that I have wondered if or when you guys were going to address. So there is talk. They want to raise the bar a little bit. I think you need to. And I don't think it's wrong. I mean, if you compare it to what we were doing 20 years ago, it's like 10 times as much, you know? It's just, I think it takes some of the horse now, like a lot of horses get in the Hall of Fame. It kills the uniqueness of being in the Hall of Fame. I mean, if we're going to do that, we can have like a- Not that they don't deserve it. I mean, those are all great horses, but, you know, now we're in a different era. And same with the riders too. You know, these guys are making a whole lot of money and a lot of the old timers are saying, you know, we need to, we need to raise the limit.

Well, I bounce back and forth. Is winning a million dollars now tougher than it was 20 years ago? Yeah, that's another point. Or is it easier? So... I got into a back and forth with someone who was talking about how much tougher it was to win a million dollars in the open than it was the non-pro or amateur. And I'm like, how can you say that? Because the non-pro and the amateur pays like 30% of what the open pays. So you're having to go that much more to win it. Back to the incentives. It has been life changing for our business. And it is what drives a business and the biggest incentives are in the ncha and i'm proud they are you know for a long time there was a whole lot of people that didn't want to count this this money on horse earnings, but it's prize money yeah it really is you're just you're just fitting into a to a category of where where you, want to you know you're buying a keno card essentially and, i think there's no way we don't count now i will tell you if you're going to run an incentive package and you want it promoted through the NCHA, we require you be a sponsor because there's stuff record-keeping-wise and everything else that we have to take care of. But...

It's not egregious. It's not going to kill anybody. Well, I will say as a sponsor, this is the first year we've been an NCHA sponsor and admittedly because of the incentive. And if we didn't have the incentive, if we dropped the incentive next year, I would do it again. I think our, I will commend NCHA on the communication and the girls that you have that represent the sponsors have been absolutely exceptional. And as somebody who is typically admittedly not a big fan of like, let's sponsor and do this to kind of like what you were saying with the NCHA, like, let's sponsor the fair. And I don't know how much you really get out of that when you do it. But I will say with our sponsorship here, having an association that would also play into some of our ideas, like, hey, we want to do this, but we want to have a podcast. You know, it's a win win for both of us. Like, let's get some of the thoughts and ideas of NCHA in front of other people.

And, you know, a lot of people that listen to this are not NCHA members right now. But I think it's been cool because you guys have been really receptive to some different ideas that was a value for you guys. It was good for NCHA. It was good for us, which is what makes a successful partnership. You know, I've always approached sponsorships very different from everybody in the industry because I feel like. What works for you may not work for this guy. And I've always, it was funny because I remember when I was at Hack Co, I was the marketing director. So I saw everything that came under the sun and you would not believe the amount. I mean, every small rodeo, everything, you know, is, hey, you want to be a sponsor?

It's like, and. You have your banner on the arena wall. Yeah. Here's my check and banner, you know, go hang it up and I'm a sponsor. So, and that drove me crazy, especially from the world I came from prior to that, because Red Bull, a lot of people would approach for sponsorship and Red Bull would automatically say no, but how can I be involved in your event? What do you need that I can help you with to make your event better? Are you, are you bringing in an act, so to speak? Yeah, we're bringing in this guy from who's a lot. Well, I tell you what, we have relationships with some of the best artists in the world. Let's bring in this one and make your event much bigger. Similar kind of deal. I sit down and I approach the majority of our.

Our stallion sponsorships are pretty boilerplate. They're kind of, and everybody kind of wants the same thing that does that. If you want to get innovative, I'm absolutely free to talk about that. But when we start stepping up into major sponsorships and title sponsorships, I sit down with the people and say, what do you want to achieve out of this? What is there that we can do to help you? Do you have a product that you're really trying to promote that we need to endear to our membership? Or is there a service that you have? Or what can we do? You know, you guys, obviously, we greatly appreciate the support and the organization needs the support. And I appreciate what you said about us. But much like that, I feel I get the same feedback from all of our sponsors, because when I got here, the sponsorship department was a train wreck.

In fact, people were pulling sponsorships. I had one lady who was in the insurance business, who's now one of my best friends, and who was very upset with the way the sponsorships had been handled. And we came in, we got everything corrected, and she's actually upped her support because of it. And I preach every day to my staff, at the end of the day, we're a customer service business, whether you like it or not. You know, and I, I hate this mentality of when people used to be scared to call the NCHA office because they weren't sure who they were going to get on the phone. They would chew them out about not having their paperwork right or whatever. It's not that way anymore. And I think a lot, a lot of these horse organizations can learn a lot from that lesson because these people don't have to do this.

A set of golf clubs a lot cheaper than a horse, you know. Mm-hmm. Going on vacation is a lot cheaper than entering a horse in your futurity, you know? Yeah. Not as much fun, though. Not as much fun. Admittedly, not as much fun. Well, thanks for coming today. And, you know, I think we could talk for hours about marketing and go walk down all kinds of deep holes of marketing and, you know, event promotion and stallion promotion. Yeah. I just have enjoyed getting to know you a little bit and know a little bit about what's going on at NCHA and how it's changing and what direction you guys are heading. And we're proud to definitely be associated with it and continue to support you guys and the cutters with our incentives as we add more cutting horse stallions here and hope to continue, and will continue to grow that to try to make it where it's as appealing as possible for us all to play this game.

You know, I think kudos to the stallion owners here, the stallion owners at Valley, the ones at Sixes that are paying into these. And I encourage people to look at that. You know, these people are putting a lot of money up for everybody to get to play. And, you know, the stallion stations, all of us are trying to make sure that we give all of our breeders a great opportunity to win a lot. And so, but I think everybody's seeing the value in it and how much there is to win on these horses that have these incentives. And, you know, I would also tell them, no matter what stallion station you're doing it with, please make sure you go up and shake your stallion owner's hands because they don't have to do it. A lot of these studs would breed mares whether they were in an incentive or not.

And I think the stallion owners get, sometimes they don't get all the recognition they should for the amount of money that comes out of their pockets every year. So I appreciate them and I'd encourage anybody that's listening to this. Whatever stud it is that you're breeding to, you make sure you tell those guys thank you. Well, there is, in my opinion, no better time to be in the industry than right now. No better time. And. I think you're exactly right. Selfishly, but truthfully, there's no better place than the NCHFB involved. Well, thanks for coming today. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. And we're looking forward to a great cutting faturity and exciting sale. And we'll be back to report to all of you guys listening to this after the cutting faturity sale and talk a little bit about results in the market and all that, just like we did last year. So thanks, Jay. Thank you, Melanie.